CHARLESTON, SC: Southern Baptist Leader Says America's Culture Wars Will Continue

"You Anglicans are the tree from which we have grown," says Albert Mohler

By David W. Virtue in Charleston, SC
www.virtueonline.org
1/18/2009

Last week, VirtueOnline attended the Mere Anglican conference in Charleston and interviewed the Rev. Dr. Albert Mohler, 9th president of the Southern Baptist Convention and a leading conservative voice in America's Culture Wars. TIME magazine called him the "reigning intellectual of the evangelical movement in the US." He addressed participants at the Mere Anglican conference on "Engaging Secularism".

Following his remarks, VOL interviewed Dr. Mohler.

HIGHLIGHTS of his speech: "We are living in one of the most precipitous times in history. We are at a hinge point of human history."

"The Christian Faith is a true ecumenism...we believe in an ecumenism of truth."

"You (Anglicans) are the tree from which we have grown."

"We cannot put up with the etiquette that denies the historic faith."

"This age in which we now live differs from ones before. We are reshaping society in a near total way." (See John: 6)

"The challenge is remaining faithful and gospel oriented."

"Both secularism and secularization have failed. Secularism has become the default position."

"Secularization emerged from sociologists and with the phenomenon known as modernity it was thought that God would recede and belief in God would disappear. Secularization does not fit the American mindset. Americans have adapted to secularization. Spirituality refutes that notion. It is impossible not to believe."

"Americans are like Indians, the most religious nation on earth, ruled by Swedes, the most secular nation on earth."

"What we are experiencing (in our culture) is cognitive contamination. No one is independent of an ideology. Now it is possible to believe."

"In talking to secular people, we are speaking to people who are just as alienated as those who have never heard the gospel."

"The world is not secular. It is infuriatingly religious."

*****

VOL interviewed Dr. Mohler at length on the issues orthodox Christians face in a post-modern culture.

VOL: Dr. Mohler, you have emerged as major conservative force in the Culture Wars. In your estimation with a new president about to take office, do you see the wars getting worse or will they simmer down?

MOHLER: The whole concept of Culture War problems is that they are intractable. I don't think anyone should be a belligerent for the cause of belligerency. But a battle has been joined on these critical issues in society culture and churches. They will go in one direction or the other. I do not see a resolution of these questions unless one side fights those pushing for a revisionist understanding of humanity or those who hope for a conservation of existing norms unless one of these two side one wins a sudden victory, we are going to be in this process for a very long time.

VOL: Leading evangelicals have identified two issues in President-Elect Obama's election that bode ill. One is pushing the abortion agenda even further than it is right now, and the other is homosexual marriage and homosexual rights as normative in American life. Are these danger signals for you?

MOHLER: Certainly. I think I understand on this (homosexual) issue and on the abortion question, he is far more self consciously pro abortion than any preceding chief executive. This is of tremendous concern. Those who have been fighting for human dignity for all persons for some time feel certainly disheartened. The good news is that America is not a pro abortion nation. The nation seems to have settled into a position in which it thinks that abortion is a grave moral evil that should be kept as a legal option. That is an incongruous and unstable understanding. Either the immoral or illegal understanding is going to have gain supremacy as some point.

On the homosexuality question. This new administration faces hard choices as well as a good deal of opposition when it gets closest to marriage and only time will tell if the move from Bush to the Obama administration is going to remove a fire wall on that issue to a national level.

VOL: American evangelicalism has been sorely compromised by high rates of divorce, no different in numbers from their secular counterparts. Do evangelicals have a moral voice that will be seriously heard in the next 25 years?

MOHLER: I guess it depends which Evangelicals are concerned. There are a good number of churches that no more hold to divorce than they did in the 60's. It is pervasive now. Divorce on demand is unilaterally initiated by either party and is now a reality. It undoubtedly compromises our credibility. It is, first and foremost, a failure on the part of the church, before it is a failure at the political and legal level.

VOL: Is America now so post-Christian that it can recover without a revival?

MOHLER: As an historical theologian, I am concerned with revival in the churches. An awakening must first emerge in the churches. Evangelicals who think revival will begin in the culture and spread to the churches are deluding themselves. America is not as post Christian as Great Britain. It is likely that we will follow our own trajectory into a post Christian age.

VOL: Billy Graham would seem to be the last of the public crusade style of evangelists. In your opinion, is this a good thing or do you believe we have entered a new era of evangelism because of the Internet, iPods, sites like Facebook, smart phones and a small is better mindset, etc?

MOHLER: I am not sure small is better. We have seen a fundamental change in the culture. The music industry is being transformed before our eyes. You can now have a full symphony or rock concert in the privacy of your own ear phones. You don't need to go to an event. The crusade as a facet of English speaking evangelicalism came at a time when the big events of the culture were associated with big crowds. That is no longer the case, so I see the crusade as a "period piece" that was used effectively and reached millions of persons but we can reach those persons with more efficient means in understanding that they expect to be reached at their convenience and not ours.

VOL: Denominationalism itself seems to be dying in America. There is little or no loyalty to any one particular denomination. Generation X & Y have given up on mainstream Christianity. How do you think this can be recovered? And should it?

MOHLER: It should be recovered because the New Testament shape of Christianity is the shape of a church. Denominations are only compelling in terms of interest when they present a vision which is attractive to believers because it mobilizes them for ministry that they cannot accomplish alone. If it is a self- serving bureaucracy, they deserve to die. It is better off being without them. The amazing things, even as these younger churches organize themselves, they take on a shape that is denominational even if they don't call it that. The Emerging Church Network is basically a denomination, as is the Seeker Sensitive churches. The binding authority of a denomination is going to be consumer shared with the Internet.

VOL: Should American mainline denominations be allowed to die in order for God to do a new thing?

MOHLER: The easy answer is "yes", because it appears almost impossible to deter them from suicide. On the other hand, we know that there are millions of faithful Christians in those churches and by life story and personal discipleship, they are deeply embedded in the life of those churches and it is irresponsible to write them off with their churches. It is a profound act of faithlessness that God will not and cannot being now bring life out of apparent death.

VOL: Evangelical Sociologist Os Guinness wrote that the 20th century was "America's Hour". It seems that the 21st century belongs to China. Do you agree?

Mohler: I certainly understand by virtue of population that China will be a major factor. The hesitancy I have about China is that China is still a nation in the making and is still woefully underdeveloped. It is also constrained by the ligaments of an enduring experiment in communism. The amazing thing, however, is that the gospel has proved to be more powerful than the human imagination could have foreseen in the explosion of Christianity within China. For that reason, the future of Christianity may not be China. It may certainly be Chinese.

VOL: America's economic, and it would seem its spiritual power, is also waning; in your opinion, is America under the judgment of God?

MOHLER: I believe that every nation is always under the judgment of God. When I read the Bible and see the Greek word translated nation (έθνος), I see it relating to peoples, not so much to governments. It is our moral abdication to blame the government for our spiritual power. We the people are responsible for this nation and we should understand that every molecule is under the judgment of God. That judgment is not always evident or punitive, but it is always just.

VOL: An evangelical Dean of a leading American Seminary in Texas said to me that materialism was the single biggest issue confronting evangelicals in the US. Do you agree with his assessment?

MOHLER: That could very well be true as part of the "American way of life". Materialism is a constant in terms of human temptation, but the entire configuration of a culture to fuel materialism is an unprecedented reality. Market consumerism may be the most efficient and equitable system of economics, but it holds all of the spiritual perils involved in other economic systems and perhaps a good deal more.

VOL: The Health and Wealth prosperity gospel, numerous cults like Scientology, feel good cults of one sort or another, and heretical churches like Mormonism seem to capture the imagination of many Americans. Why is that?

MOHLER: I think it goes back to Genesis 3 and the Tower of Babel. It goes back to the confusion of the nations. It is not a new phenomenon. To paraphrase, we should not be surprised by how many heresies human beings invent because it turns out that we appear to be experts at it.

The desire to find a quick spiritual fix leads millions of persons to the flashy well packaged and enticing alternatives, but the reality is that these groups seldom last in terms of effectiveness and last between one or two generations. Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy's religion) is disappearing.

Hollywood glitterati go for Scientology. There is an enormous hunger within persons for celebrity status who finds, in the most eccentric system of thought, a sense of belonging they are unwilling to find in the vast majority of those who go beyond them.

No, we cannot possibly think of the world and the seriousness of these questions until we are accountable to those same convictions in our churches and denominations. The Culture Wars is of secondary concern to the church crisis.

VOL: Can President Obama save America?

MOHLER: He is a sort of messianic cult figure. I don't underestimate the power of presidential leadership. Many of the most significant forces contributing to our forces are far outside of their control. I will pray for success for this president. I hope his leadership skills are as keen as his followers think they are. I hope God changes his heart on a host of issues.

VOL: Recent figures suggest that all is not well in the Southern Baptist Convention. From what was thought to be 16.2 million members the actual figure is 6 million. What happened?

MOHLER: We counted persons without any accountability to authentic church membership so our membership roles were bloated and frankly dishonest. It is not as if the denomination has collapsed. It is that the real numbers are becoming far more relevant and known. The SBC is still a vibrant evangelical denomination, but it faces a host of challenges including a tremendous generational challenge. The SBC faces a huge cultural challenge in that that the SBC is part of the solid south and the south is no longer solid and Southern Baptists are no longer localized in the region. We have a changed missiological setting.

VOL: Do you see a revival for Southern Baptists in the wind, or is it over for your denomination?

MOHLER: It is not over for our denomination. I look out at over 4,000 young ministers and that is unprecedented. The future will be radically different. This generation will not see Southern Baptists as the company store, but as partners in ministry.

VOL: What role do you see the Internet playing in seminary education in the future?

MOHLER: I don't think we are going to talk about anything that involves multiple personalities without speaking of the Internet and for that reason the Internet will have a significant role in theological education. A significant proportion of knowledge cannot be taught very well over the Internet. There are inherent limitations. Timothy had to spend a lot of time with Paul learning the ways and forms of ministry far beyond what Paul taught with words. We can teach Greek exegesis over the Internet, but it does not allow us to go from exegesis to the pulpit and does not take us to the bedside of a dying friend.

VOL: Rick Warren is Southern Baptist. What do you see as the public image of Warren in the coming years?

MOHLER: Rick Warren has a great feel for where people can be reached and what kind of message catches their attention.?

VOL: Is it authentic?

MOHLER: I have grave concern about the reduction of the gospel to 'The "Purpose Driven Life."' There is a great deal more to Christianity that a believer must know. The problem with many of these approaches, at the populist level, is that it does not appear that believers get there.

VOL: Dr. Warren is being touted as America's Pastor. Do you agree with that assessment?

MOHLER: I do not believe that any individual can be America's pastor. America is far too diversified as a nation for that to be possible and a host of pastors have media visibility. That was not true when Billy Graham began his ministry.

VOL: There has emerged in the Obama Culture Wars a faceoff between Rick Warren and Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson, an openly homogenital man. What is your take on this?

MOHLER: Rick Warren and Gene Robinson represent radically divergent worldviews and incommensurate goals. They are not two very different representatives of one religion. They are instead two very symbolic representatives of two very different religions.

VOL: And your take on the Church of England?

MOHLER: "The crisis in the Church of England," wrote Clive James in The Dreaming Swimmer , "is that too many of its bishops, and some would say of its archbishops, don't quite realize that they are atheists, but have begun to suspect it."

On the Episcopal Church and Robinson: The "God of our many understandings" is a confused composite -- a very postmodern idol. Clive James is quite right about the theological crisis of unbelieving bishops - but you need go no farther than New Hampshire to find an example.

VOL: Thank you Dr. Mohler.

END

...a prayer for President Obama by Dr. Albert Mohler

Romans 13:1-7; 1 Tim. 2:1-2

"Our Father, Lord of all creation, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ: We pray today with a sense of special urgency and responsibility. We come before you to pray for our new President, Barack Obama, and for all those in this new administration who now assume roles of such high responsibility.

We know that you and you alone are sovereign; that you rule over all, and that you alone are able to keep and defend us. We know that our times are in your hands, and that "the king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord" [Proverbs 21:1]. Our confidence is in you and in you alone. We come before you as a people who acknowledge our constant need for your provision, wisdom, and protection.

Father, we pray today for Barack Obama as he takes office as President of the United States. We pray that you will show the glory of your name in our times and in these days, confounding the wisdom of the wise, thwarting the plans of the arrogant, and vindicating those who do justice and practice righteousness.

Father, we pray with thanksgiving for the gift of government and the grace of civic order. Thank you for giving us rulers and for knowing our need for laws and ordered life together. Thank you for this nation and the blessings we know as its citizens. Thank you for freedoms unprecedented in human history. We understand that these freedoms come with unprecedented opportunities.

Lord, we pray with thanksgiving for the joy and celebration reflected on millions of faces who never expected to look to the President of the United States and see a person who looks like themselves. Father, thank you for preserving this nation to the moment when an African-American citizen will take the oath of office and become our President. Thank you for the hope this has given to so many, the pride emerging in hearts that had known no such hope, and the pride that comes to a people who have experienced such pain at the hands of fellow citizens, simply because of the color of their skin. Father, we rejoice in every elderly face that reflects such long-sought satisfaction and in every young face that expresses such unrestrained joy. May this become an open door for a vision of race and human dignity that reflects your glory in our differences, and not our corruption of your gift.

Father, protect this president, we pray. We pray that you will surround this president and his family, along with all our leaders, with your protection and sustenance. May he be protected from evil acts and evil intentions, and may his family be protected from all evil and harm.

We pray that the Obama family will be drawn together as they move into the White House, and that they will know great joy in their family life. We are thankful for the example Barack and Michelle Obama have set as parents. Father, protect those precious girls in every way -- including the protection of their hearts as they see their father often criticized and as he is away from them on business of state. May their years in the White House bring them all even closer together.

Father, we pray for the safety and security of this nation, even as our new president settles into his role as Commander in Chief. We know that you and you alone can be our defense. We do not place our trust in horses or chariots, and we pray that you will give this president wisdom as he fulfills this vital responsibility.

Father, grant him wisdom in every dimension of his vast responsibility. Grant him wisdom to deal with a global financial crisis and with the swirling complex of vexing problems and challenges at home and abroad. May he inspire this nation to a higher vision for our common life together, to a higher standard of justice, righteousness, unity, and the tasks of citizenship.

Father, we pray that you will change this president's heart and mind on issues of urgent concern. We are so thankful for his gifts and talents, for his intellect and power of influence. Father, bend his heart to see the dignity and sanctity of every single human life, from the moment of conception until natural death. Father, lead him to see abortion, not as a matter of misconstrued rights, but as a murderous violation of the right to life. May he come to see every aborted life as a violation of human dignity and every abortion as an abhorrent blight upon this nation's moral witness. May he pledge himself to protect every human life at every stage of development. He has declared himself as an energetic defender of abortion rights, and we fear that his election will lead directly to the deaths of countless unborn human beings. Protect us from this unspeakable evil, we pray. Most urgently, we pray that you will bring the reign of abortion to an end, even as you are the defender of the defenseless.

Father, may this new president see that human dignity is undermined when human embryos are destroyed in the name of medical progress, and may he see marriage as an institution that is vital to the very survival of civilization. May he protect all that is right and good. Father, change his heart where it must be changed, and give him resolve where his heart is right before you.

Father, when we face hard days ahead -- when we find ourselves required by conscience to oppose this president within the bounds of our roles as citizens -- may we be granted your guidance to do so with a proper spirit, with a proper demeanor, and with persuasive arguments. May we learn anew how to confront without demonizing, and to oppose without abandoning hope.

Father, we are aware that our future is in your hands, and we are fully aware that you and you alone will judge the nations. Much responsibility is now invested in President Barack Obama, and much will be required. May we, as Christian citizens, also fulfill what you would require of us. Even as we pray for you to protect this president and change his heart, we also pray that your church will be protected and that you will conform our hearts to your perfect will.

Father, we pray these things in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, the ever-reigning once and future King, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He and he alone can save, and his kingdom is forever. Above all, may your great name be praised. Amen."

Christians are, first of all, citizens of a heavenly kingdom. The followers of Christ know no allegiance of ultimate rank to any government or earthly authority. Yet, the Bible clearly teaches that God has given us the gifts of law, government, and ruling authorities for our good. We are instructed to pray for "rulers and all who have authority" and to be faithful in praying "so that we can have quiet and peaceful lives full of worship and respect for God" [1 Timothy 2:2].

As Barack Obama prepares to take the oath of office and become the 44th President of the United States, Christians should be thinking about how to pray for the new President. I offer this prayer as a place to start, as we observe the inauguration of the 44th President of the United States together.

END